Frank Sturzl, Tom Wendorf, Susan Causey, Michael Bloom, Michelle Maddox Smith, Martin Rochelle, Bob Chapman, Dave Howe, David Dybala, Frances Verhalen, Jim Siddall, Jim Mathews, Karen Siddall, Roxanne Jackson, Larry Hertel, Marsha Reed, Anita Burgess, Katrina Martich, Clarence Reed, Keith Kennedy, Peggy Glass, Raika Hammond, Scott Houston, Steve Veal, Lori Houston, Nancy Beward, Sally Farris, Pat Smiley, Hilda Garza Scott, Trent Martin, Catherine Elliot, Philip Welsch, Ed Drusina, Jim Martinez, Andy Anderson, Michael Jones, Megan Miller, Joe Burgess, Linda Pecachek, Rory Meza, David Stolpa, Tom Mountz, Angela Moorman, John Bryant, Norm King, Sam Talji, Valerie Gray, Peggy Sumner

Introductions

I. 9:30 – 9:45

TPDES Storm Water Discharge Permit

II. 9:45 – 11:00

A. Presentation

Tom Wendorf, TPWA President and Public Works Director of the City of San Antonio , presented a power point outlining the TCEQ Storm Water Discharge Permit process. The power point is attached.

Discussion – Tom Wendorf opened up the floor for discussion.

Dave Howe, the City of Dallas - Why does TCEQ refuse to accommodate our requests? Sally Farris, the City of San Antonio , stated that TCEQ would not break the rules; the permit is a waste discharge permit because industrial permits are written as waste discharge permits.

Catherine Elliot, Harris County Flood Control – Commented that she believed that TCEQ did not have the authority to issue a "pollutant" discharge permit for general permits. Therefore, TCEQ issues a waste discharge permit, because for a waste discharge permit they could issue an Individual or a General Permit.

Dave Howe mentioned that if it is a waste discharge permit he would like the permit to include disavowing language, and Sally Farris concurred and added that she thinks TCEQ can add the language. Mr. Howe observed that TCEQ's Mr. Ligon would not respond to legal arguments, legal points are not in Mr. Ligon's bailiwick, so to speak.

Martin Rochelle, San Antonio Waters Systems, Garland , and Corpus Christi - Stated that Steve Ligon of TCEQ is not concerned and feels that the chapter is only a reference. Sally Farris stated that it applies either way and that TCEQ's staff acknowledges it applies but promises the Subchapter B limits will not be enforced, and wants the City to rely on that promise. Martin Rochelle stated that the issue has not been brought up through the ranks of TCEQ and must be accelerated in the ranks.

Sally Farris, City of San Antonio - Stated that TCEQ recognizes that the application should not apply, but TCEQ did not complete the final step to rescue the city from the default.

Linda Pechacek,Turner, Collie, and Braden - Asked if structural or non-structural BMPs could be equated to effluent limitation standards. Also noted that the MS4 permits by statute must meet maximum extent practicable.

Michael Bloom, PBS&J - Stated that effluent limits do not need to be numeric to invoke the exemption language in 30 TAC 319; a narrative storm water management program addressing these metals would be adequate to serve as “effluent limitations” as envisioned by EPA and TCEQ.

Roxanne Jackson, City of Austin - Mentioned that a rule amendment would not happen. She suggested that we keep the narrative generic and include the language in an introduction or executive summary stating that the discharge will apply to the MEP. Roxanne also suggested that the participants submit a unified comment.

Dave Howe stressed the importance of coercing TCEQ to do something different. Dave suggested that we get Councilmembers from four or five Phase I Cities and meet with Margaret Hoffman and request the recommended changes. Dave also reiterated the importance of a unified comment.

Mike Jones, City of Waco - Stated that the TCEQ does not want to lose credibility on the issue, therefore it is very important to compromise that we help TCEQ by providing a narrative explanation for the differences in character among industrial, airport, and municipal permits. The character of run-off is different in each case. Mike recommended that we recommend different permits for construction, industry, and municipalities. Tom Wendorf concurred.

Michael Bloom mentioned that Chapter 319 was adopted in 1990. Michael requested a history on the rule.

Martin Rochelle stated that the rule was a late 1970’s EPA issue, and came out of the “red book.” The intentions were to have little restriction on the limits. Jim Mathews reiterated that these limits were designed to be very lenient. Michael Bloom noted that the values are too high to be water quality based.

Jim Mathews, Attorney for Irving Texas - Mentioned that the limits could benefit a municipality and serve as a permit shield.

Tom Wendorf mentioned that no correlation between water quality improvements and limits has been found. The permit is essentially a right to discharge.

Tom mentioned that he would like to avoid holding a public meeting. The group concurred and stated that a public meeting could be detrimental, and also the City of San Antonio is running out of time. A unified comment would be best.

David Dybala, City of Dallas – Asked if there was any assurance that TCEQ could not lower the action levels on the permit even though the current levels do not indicate that the limits have been exceeded. Jim Mathews stated that this would require legislative action.

Michael Bloom commented that if we argue for a permit name change (“waste” to “storm water”), there might be other unintended consequences since the Texas Administrative Code may reference “waste” permits frequently. TCEQ may be reluctant to make a change with that many possible ripple effects.

Tom Wendorf requested a consensus from the group. The group agreed that the permit should be written as a storm water discharge permit.

Martin Rochelle reiterated that the issue must be escalated within the TCEQ agency. [Both Rochelle and Mathews agree the City must make TCEQ understand the City is poised to go to a full contested hearing if the agency cannot or will not correct the permit at staff level. Both expressed belief TCEQ can be persuaded short of a contested hearing; however, moving TCEQ will not be possible unless and until the agency is convinced of the City's resolve to go to a contested hearing.]

Larry Hertel, City of Lubbock - Stated that he is concerned because all of the cities have unique environments and should not be held to the same standards. Larry requested that a public meeting be held.

Roxanne Jackson stated that by opening it up for a public meeting we would get more that we asked for.

Jim Mathews stated that if the City of San Antonio wanted to hold a public meeting it should have been done earlier.

Nancy Beward, City of San Antonio , stated that the City of San Antonio believed that the TCEQ would accommodate their requests. The City anticipated that their edits and comments would be implemented in to the draft.

Jim Mathews reiterated that we should fight the battle with the top ranks. If we do have a contested hearing, Phase I Cities should request to be a party to the hearing.

Frank Sturzl, Texas Municipal League - Suggested that TPWA write a letter to the governor informing him of the impact this will have on the trans Texas program. He recommended that we copy Krusee, Shapiro, and Oddgon. Sturzl also recommended that TPWA write a letter to TxDOT.

Tom Wendorf asked for nominations to write a letter to TxDOT. Ed Drusina, Larry Hertel, and David Dybala were nominated.

Larry Hertel asked how we could change the permit within 30 days. Tom stated that the City of San Antonio will work their own track and that the association will work their own track.

A task force was formed to create and distribute a unified comment. Task force includes: Roxanne Jackson, Michael Bloom, Nancy Beward, Linda Pechacek, and Anne Day.

Michael Bloom added to a comment by someone from Dallas that by

calling the permit a "waste permit" TCEQ is hindering municipal public

education efforts. It is contrary to one of the main goals of the municipal stormwater permitting program. Storm water should not be viewed as a waste.

Larry Hertel stated that a meeting would be held at the TML conference in November. He directed Susan Causey to send out a meeting notice.

III. Break 11:00 – 11:10

IV. Next Steps

A. Tom Wendorf reviewed the following proposed options:

Adopt multi-level approach in addressing the permit
Rewrite Language
Include a narrative program addressing the metals in place of numeric limits within the executive summary
Proactive Statement in Executive Summary stating applicant is following MEP’s – therefore numeric effluent limits are not required
Request Public Hearing
Entities submit unified comment to TCEQ for the record and response
Request TCEQ to differentiate municipality permits from industry permits
Move issue up through TCEQ ranks
Recruit Council representation from I-35 Corridor Cities including West Texas Cities to approach Margaret Hoffman
Adopt the permit as is and use limits as a permit shield
Join efforts with TxDOT

B. Tom Wendorf reviewed the participants responsibilities:

City of San Antonio will go through the necessary steps to move higher within the TCEQ organization
TML will assist with legislative involvement after the necessary steps have been made by the City of San Antonio
Designated TPWA members will draft a letter to TxDOT requesting support
A designated taskforce will draft a unified comment to be posted on the website for participants to read and distribute

V. Conclusion